Legislature(2007 - 2008)CAPITOL 17

01/24/2008 01:30 PM House TRANSPORTATION


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01:34:40 PM Start
01:34:51 PM Presentation: State Transportation Improvement Plan (stip) 101
03:27:35 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ State Transportation Improvement TELECONFERENCED
Program 101, Continued
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
            HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                        January 24, 2008                                                                                        
                           1:34 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kyle Johansen, Chair                                                                                             
Representative Mark Neuman, Vice Chair                                                                                          
Representative Anna Fairclough                                                                                                  
Representative Wes Keller                                                                                                       
Representative Mike Doogan                                                                                                      
Representative Woodie Salmon                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Craig Johnson                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
PRESENTATION:  STATE TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENT PLAN (STIP) 101                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     - CONTINUED FROM 1/22/08                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to report                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JEFF OTTESEN, Director                                                                                                          
Division of Program Development                                                                                                 
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities (DOT&PF)                                                                       
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained the Statewide Transportation                                                                   
Improvement Plan (STIP) and answered questions.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  KYLE  JOHANSEN called  the  House  Transportation  Standing                                                            
Committee  meeting   to  order  at  1:34:40   PM.  Representatives                                                            
Johansen,  Neuman, Fairclough,  Keller,  Doogan,  and Salmon  were                                                              
present at the call to order.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
^PRESENTATION:  STATE TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENT PLAN (STIP) 101                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:34:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  announced that  the only  order of business  would                                                              
be  the  continuation  of  the  STIP  101  presentation  from  the                                                              
1/22/08 House Transportation Standing Committee meeting.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN began by asking Mr. Ottesen:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     When  we took  an  at-ease  to take  up  the [Alaska]  Marine                                                              
     Highways  we were talking  about records  of decision  and...                                                              
     the  relevance  of that  trigger  being met.    I believe  on                                                              
     Tuesday  you testified  that indeed,  the record of  decision                                                              
     [ROD] is the legal conclusion to a process.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
JEFF   OTTESEN,  Director,   Division   of  Program   Development,                                                              
Department  of   Transportation  &  Public   Facilities  (DOT&PF),                                                              
replied that is correct.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:35:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN continued:                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     So my question  is once we meet that legal  conclusion to the                                                              
     process,  not  to imply  or  say that  there  were any  legal                                                              
     consequences  or laws broken,  by gosh,  by the governor  but                                                              
     I'm  wondering  if  maybe   it  was  legally  challenging  to                                                              
     basically cancel  a project.  Does it not -  what is the step                                                              
     from there?  Does it not go back through a process again?                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  explained that the  record of decision is  a decision                                                              
by a  federal agency  on an environmental  impact statement  (EIS)                                                              
over which it  has jurisdiction, in this case  the Federal Highway                                                              
Administration   (FHA).     If  action   on  any   of  the   build                                                              
alternatives  in the EIS  is selected in  the record  of decision,                                                              
DOT&PF is  legally obligated to  proceed with that project  or pay                                                              
back the expended federal funds.  He elaborated:                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     It becomes a  decision point.  You step over  it, you now are                                                              
     going to  either incur  the cost of  building the  project or                                                              
     the cost of  paying back the funds today.  I  guess the third                                                              
     alternative, which  I've seen handled in a few  cases, is you                                                              
     change  your mind  and  go back  and redo  the  EIS and  once                                                              
     again come  to a new  conclusion.   An example of  that would                                                              
     have  been  the  coastal  trail  where  we  actually  made  a                                                              
     decision and then came back and undid that decision.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:37:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN asked  if the record  of decision  was reached  on                                                              
the [Anchorage] coastal trail.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  as DOT&PF got into the process,  it decided [the                                                              
original plan]  would be very costly.   The department  decided to                                                              
re-open  the  EIS  and select  the  no-build  alternative  so  the                                                              
project was successfully terminated without repayment.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:37:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  asked whether  any  funds  were expended  on  the                                                              
coastal trail project.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  the EIS and some of the  preliminary engineering                                                              
work were paid  for with federal  dollars and a state  match.  The                                                              
preliminary  engineering showed  which right-of-way parcels  would                                                              
have to be acquired.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   JOHANSEN   asked  if   funds   were  expended   to   begin                                                              
construction after the ROD.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said no construction occurred to his knowledge.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:38:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked, when  an alternative  is selected,  whether                                                              
the procedure  entails a  review of the  preliminary EIS,  the EIS                                                              
and the issuance of a new ROD.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  if a  new alternative  is  introduced, the  new                                                              
alternative  must be  studied with  the same  vigor and degree  of                                                              
investigation as  any other alternatives  studied.  If one  of the                                                              
existing alternatives  is chosen, that process is  "a shorter step                                                              
backward."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:39:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN asked  if  the process  goes  back to  the EIS  or                                                              
whether it just requires a new ROD.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  replied that depends  upon whether a  new alternative                                                              
is  being opened.    A  final EIS  could  be reissued  for  public                                                              
comment for  an existing alternative.   From  that a ROD  could be                                                              
issued.   The process would  revert to issuing  a draft EIS  for a                                                              
new alternative.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH  clarified that  the  extension on  the                                                              
coastal  trail  was  revisited,   not  the  entire  coastal  trail                                                              
project.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:39:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SALMON  informed  Mr. Ottesen  that  he  requested                                                              
information   on   the  airports   in   his  district   from   the                                                              
commissioner and has not yet received a response.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the response should  arrive shortly and  that he                                                              
helped write part of it today.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON  said he would also like  information on the                                                              
dust control project in Eagle.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  he  will  add  that  information  to  DOT&PF's                                                              
response.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN interjected  to say  that Representative  Salmon's                                                              
question  was  included  in  the memo  to  the  commissioner  that                                                              
contained  all  of the  committee's  questions.   He  expected  to                                                              
receive one  letter responding  to all  questions, which  he would                                                              
distribute to all members.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:40:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER asked  how much federal  money is  returned                                                              
and how often that occurs.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  that  DOT&PF rarely  returns  funds because  it                                                              
does a lot of negotiating to avoid that outcome.  He explained:                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     There  are actually  a  large  number of  what  we call  time                                                              
     traps  on  the  books.   Some  of  them  we'll say  okay,  we                                                              
     promise  to  build  that,  put  it  in  the  STIP  [Statewide                                                              
     Transportation  and  Improvement  Plan]  and  get  it  built.                                                              
     We've  been doing  that over  time.   It may  be past the  10                                                              
     years, but as  long as we can show them  intent to accomplish                                                              
     the  project,  they'll  kind   of  waive  the  hard  rule  of                                                              
     payback.    But we have, in  some cases, decided  to pay back                                                              
     funding when  we just  didn't see a  way out of  the problem.                                                              
     I think  what we're facing now  is just a much  larger number                                                              
     of such  paybacks if we  aren't careful.   And that's  why we                                                              
     shut  down  the  projects.    We shut  down  the  project  to                                                              
     McCarthy  for  this  very  reason.   Almost  a  $100  million                                                              
     project - we  could not really fairly see a  way to fund that                                                              
     so we  took an EIS and turned  it down.  We  actually stopped                                                              
     it before it was complete.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:41:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH  asked  if  it  is  fair  to  say  that                                                              
Alaska's  federal income  stream was  drastically altered  several                                                              
years ago.   She remarked  that Anchorage had projects  consisting                                                              
of over $40 million  every year in the early part  of this decade;                                                              
however at a particular  point of time, about 50  percent of those                                                              
funds  disappeared.   She  asked  whether  that  was caused  by  a                                                              
change in state or federal allocations.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the decrease was  due to a change in  the amount                                                              
of  flexible federal  funds.   DOT&PF  received  more money  under                                                              
SAFETEA-LU  than  it  had  previously   but  the  state  had  less                                                              
decision  making   authority  over  that  money   because  of  new                                                              
categories  of set-aside funds  and earmarks.   Those  two changes                                                              
added up to a significant reduction in flexible dollars.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:43:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH asked:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     If there  [are] criteria for  us to return federal  money, in                                                              
     most cases  would that  mean that we  have a project  that we                                                              
     don't have  a way  to pay for  those funds?   Is that  one of                                                              
     the  possibilities  for turning  back  money?   If  we got  a                                                              
     small  earmark  where  a project  could  be  paid for  by  10                                                              
     percent  of  an allocation  coming  federally,  but we  still                                                              
     needed to  come up with a  large percentage outside  of that,                                                              
     would that be one reason that we turned back money?                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN replied  affirmatively.    He said  the  commissioner                                                              
recently talked to  the committee about a new earmark  policy.  He                                                              
thought the  list of  earmarks adds  up to 10  percent of  a total                                                              
cost  of  about $700  million  to  complete  those projects.    He                                                              
stressed that the number of projects is small.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:44:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  said he  believes  the commissioner  also  stated                                                              
that in  cases in  which DOT&PF  receives funds  that do  not meet                                                              
the  entire cost  of a  project, the  department actively  pursues                                                              
solutions with those communities before that money is returned.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that  is correct.   The department  engaged with                                                              
some  of those  communities  yesterday.   Some  of those  projects                                                              
simply need  a title  change; about 15  projects lack  the correct                                                              
title  to  be  useful  to  the   community.    John  Katz  of  the                                                              
Governor's  Washington,  D.C.  office  got  those  project  titles                                                              
added to  the technical corrections  bill, but that bill  has been                                                              
stalled for several months.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:45:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  asked who  decides  that a  specific  alternative                                                              
will be chosen and how that process works.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  that decision  is  usually made  by the  agency                                                              
that is  advocating the  project.  It  is done with  consideration                                                              
of public input  and agreement amongst the federal  partners.  All                                                              
sorts  of agencies  weigh  in on  these  projects;  EPA, the  Army                                                              
Corps of Engineers, etcetera.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:46:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  questioned  whether DOT&PF  ever  gets  crosswise                                                              
with local communities on the choice of an alternative project.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  certainly and gave the Juneau  Access project as                                                              
an example.  Some  communities to the north are  not interested in                                                              
linking up  while others are.   He said more commonly  a community                                                              
will express  support for  a project  and then  change gears  at a                                                              
later time.   That  is a weakness  of the system.   DOT&PF  has to                                                              
pursue  projects  over a  long  time  period during  which  public                                                              
sentiment can change.   He noted that is the case  with the bridge                                                              
road project to  Nondalton because that community's  world appears                                                              
to be changed by the Pebble Mine.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:48:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked  if DOT&PF's position would  override a local                                                              
concern  or whether  DOT&PF  would adjust  its  plan according  to                                                              
local input.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN replied:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     ...  It's  a  tough  question.    When  we  make  a  decision                                                              
     communities  like - they  pat you  on the  back and  it's all                                                              
     smiles.  When  you make a decision that  communities disagree                                                              
     with,  it can be  very controversial  and typically  the most                                                              
     controversial  decisions are ones  where we can't  go forward                                                              
     because  funding is not  available or we  ... don't  have the                                                              
     means to  accomplish it.   I spent  some time yesterday  with                                                              
     mayors from  the Kenai Peninsula area - very  concerned about                                                              
     two projects  in their neighborhood  on the  national highway                                                              
     system.  They're  state responsibility.  They've  been on the                                                              
     design boards  for literally decades.  In the  case of Cooper                                                              
     Landing  it started in  the early '70s  - a 35-year  project.                                                              
     It's  now a  project  that's gone  on  beyond the  term of  a                                                              
     young engineer  who starts at  22 out of college  and retires                                                              
     after 30 years  and we still can't proceed  with that project                                                              
     and they're  upset because of  that.    So I see it  from all                                                              
     sides.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:49:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN returned to his presentation:                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     ...  I  think  this sort  of  amplifies  what  Representative                                                              
     Fairclough was  speaking to.  The  date here is not  firm.  I                                                              
     could've picked  2003.  I could have picked  2005 but clearly                                                              
     the  kind  of downhill  easy  trail  coasting, so  to  speak,                                                              
     changed  about this  time period  in a  number of  ways.   We                                                              
     were  running funding  surpluses  in the  Highway Trust  Fund                                                              
     and  those surpluses  were being  shared with  states and  so                                                              
     the states had  surplus money above sort of  what had already                                                              
     been promised.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:49:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     They  were actually  giving us  bonus money.   The money  was                                                              
     largely  directed to  core  needs.   The  state had  dominion                                                              
     over those  decisions.   It was going  to, you know,  all the                                                              
     needs  across  the state.    We were  doing  10  to 12  major                                                              
     projects on  the National Highway System last  summer, almost                                                              
     two projects  per main highway.   We had more  flexibility in                                                              
     the STIP  rules than  we have today  and the amendments  were                                                              
     easier and most  of the earmarks at that  time were additive.                                                              
     They were  coming to us  above the  line, so to  speak, above                                                              
     the money  we got  as formula  funds.  And  some of  the most                                                              
     significant  earmarks of  that era  would be the  Glenn-Parks                                                              
     Interchange,  a  $50 million  earmark  that built  a  project                                                              
     that  I think  anyone in  the state  would stand  up and  say                                                              
     that was  truly a very high  level state need.  It  was fully                                                              
     funded and it addressed a clear state need.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     It  started to  change.   A  number of  things changed  about                                                              
     that timeframe.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:51:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     We started  seeing reduced  funding.   We went from  positive                                                              
     funding in the  Highway Trust Fund to negative  funding so we                                                              
     weren't  getting  full funding,  we  were getting  less  than                                                              
     full funding.   They passed  SAFETEA-LU and gave us  a number                                                              
     of new  set asides for programs  that we have to  spend money                                                              
     on but  we can't spend  them on core  needs.  I  would define                                                              
     core needs  as basically building  and maintaining  roads and                                                              
     ferries, just the dirt and asphalt and steel type projects.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked if that includes ferries.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said it does.  He said SHAKWAK funds were available                                                                 
up until 2004.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:52:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     The limitations  I'll talk about  and have talked  about have                                                              
     ramped up.   The regulations have come on line.   We've had a                                                              
     large number  of deductive earmarks.   It started out  at the                                                              
     time  of SAFETEA-LU  the deductive earmarks  were about  $600                                                              
     million.    After the  change  to  the  two bridges,  it's  a                                                              
     little  bit more  than $300  million  in deductive  earmarks.                                                              
     That total number  is pretty significant when  you understand                                                              
     that  we  had  only  about $1.5  billion  in  flexible  money                                                              
     remaining  after earmarks.    So $600  million  out of  $1500                                                              
     million is a pretty healthy fraction.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:52:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     And then  we've had a  new word that  we had to learn  how to                                                              
     spell,  is  rescissions. ...Rescissions  are  essentially  an                                                              
     act  of Congress  to take back  money that  has already  been                                                              
     authorized, to  simply have the  states give it back  to them                                                              
     in a certain amount.   We get it in the form  of a notice and                                                              
     you  have no  choice.   You have  to send money  back to  the                                                              
     federal government.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:53:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     At the  top of  page 7,  I'm sure  you've probably  seen this                                                              
     slide  before  in previous  presentations,  but  each one  of                                                              
     those dots  is a major  federal law  that has been  passed or                                                              
     reenacted  and added  to and  amplified.   It basically  says                                                              
     environmental  issues started  to grow in  the '60s  and they                                                              
     haven't slowed  down and every  one of those  dots represents                                                              
     some new  rule, process,  activity, barrier to  accomplishing                                                              
     our  job.   It makes  that job  a little  bit more  difficult                                                              
     each  time a  dot is added  to that  line.   Of course,  this                                                              
     presentation now  is almost five years old.   There have been                                                              
     several more dots added to the line.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:53:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN asked  if the  environmental concerns  fall                                                              
into a specific category, such as concerns about water.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the concerns  are all  over the map.   Depending                                                              
on  the project,  concerns may  pertain  to the  Clean Water  Act,                                                              
wetlands,  the  Clean Air  Act,  the  Endangered Species  Act  and                                                              
historic  preservation. For  example, DOT&PF  is currently  making                                                              
preparations  to do  safety work  in downtown  Anchorage, such  as                                                              
making  changes to  curb lines,  changes  in "channelization"  for                                                              
drivers, changes  to signage,  etcetera.  He  has heard  that some                                                              
of the  buildings in downtown are  historic so the  safety changes                                                              
may not be  in keeping with  the historic character of  that area.                                                              
He  said  that is  an  example  of  the tension  DOT&PF  faces  in                                                              
projects.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:55:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN asked if  it is it  up to the  community to                                                              
notify  DOT&PF of  its concerns  about  preserving the  historical                                                              
character of the area.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the  State Historic  Preservation Office  (SHPO)                                                              
is  advocating  for historical  preservation  of  the  area.   The                                                              
preservation  is being done  with federal and  state dollars.   He                                                              
noted  it  is not  uncommon  for  a  state  agency  to hold  up  a                                                              
project.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN  pointed  out  that  one  state  agency  is                                                              
increasing the cost of another state agency's project.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  agreed  and  said  the same  thing  happens  at  the                                                              
federal level.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:56:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN asked  Mr.  Ottesen  for information  about                                                              
the expansion project on the Parks Highway.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  most  of  the Parks  Highway  has  a very  wide                                                              
original  right-of-way, which  is advantageous.   He believes  the                                                              
wetlands  issue will  be of  concern on  that project.   He  noted                                                              
wetlands  issues   had  to  be  considered  at   the  Parks  Glenn                                                              
Interchange,  which  is one  reason  bridges  were used  to  avoid                                                              
embankment fill.   DOT&PF spent  more money on the  design concept                                                              
but was  able to get  the project  done.  He  said he  thought the                                                              
impediment  to any  Parks  Highway  improvements  is dollars,  not                                                              
permitting.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:57:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN asked  what historic  area Mr. Ottesen  was                                                              
referring to and what the historic concerns are.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said he would provide that information.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:57:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN inquired:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Before we  get off the  top of page  7...it seems to  me that                                                              
     folks  talk about  the increased  cost  of planning,  design,                                                              
     engineering  and litigation  per...dollar  spent.   Obviously                                                              
     these must  have some  impact on how  much we actually  spend                                                              
     on  concrete and  construction, all  of these  hoops we  jump                                                              
     through.   I don't know  what the change  is and you  may not                                                              
     have the  numbers, but  how do these  impact that and  how is                                                              
     spending on  non-dirt moving basically per dollar  changed in                                                              
     the last few years...?                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.   OTTESEN  replied   those  costs   have  clearly   increased.                                                              
DOT&PF's environmental  staff is doing more studies.   He has seen                                                              
a  significant  number  of  challenges  during  DOT&PF's  planning                                                              
sets, both  in and outside of court.   DOT&PF has been  to federal                                                              
and state court five  times in the past six years.    One case was                                                              
taken to  the Ninth Circuit Court;  DOT&PF prevailed but  the case                                                              
was  costly monetarily  and time  wise.   He  furthered, "It  just                                                              
seems  to be  our  fate as  a state.    We have  a  lot of  people                                                              
watching  us,  what  we do,  wanting  to  somehow  redirect  those                                                              
decisions, particularly  with regard to anything in  the form of a                                                              
new road.  So that's always controversial."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:59:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked  what DOT&PF has done to address  some of the                                                              
planning, design and engineering cost increases.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  he  is  not the  best  person to  address  that                                                              
topic.   He  suggested  asking  the  regional directors  for  that                                                              
information.   He indicated  in  his area, staff  is working  with                                                              
state  troopers  and  local law  enforcement  to  provide  traffic                                                              
officers  with laptop  computers  that will  allow  them to  issue                                                              
citations  and  traffic  accident reports  electronically.    That                                                              
change has  upfront costs but  should save  money in the  long run                                                              
and safety benefits  should result as well.   Currently, a traffic                                                              
accident  report must  be made  on paper.   It is  filed with  the                                                              
Division of  Motor Vehicles and  then moves to DOT&PF  to identify                                                              
safety  problems.   Copies  are  also sent  to  the Department  of                                                              
Public Safety  and sometimes the  Court System.  Moving  that data                                                              
by  hand   takes  months   and  is   expensive;  this   slows  the                                                              
identification of  safety problems.  He  told members he  was in a                                                              
traffic  accident in  the  state of  Washington  recently at  9:00                                                              
a.m.    By  the  close  of  business   that  day,  the  Washington                                                              
Department  of  Transportation  faxed  him  the  accident  report.                                                              
DOT&PF is proposing to implement the same system.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:01:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  asked  if  Mr.   Ottesen's  area  is  design  and                                                              
engineering.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  his  focus  is on  the  planning  side.    The                                                              
department  has made the  STIP electronic  and is collecting  data                                                              
electronically.    It has  been  researching new  data  collectors                                                              
that will allow  DOT&PF to do intersection  counts electronically.                                                              
In  the  past, a  technician  would  sit  at an  intersection  for                                                              
several days and count cars.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:02:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN  asked  how  much  money it  will  take  to                                                              
implement the electronic  report filing system and  whether DOT&PF                                                              
requested funds in its budget for that project.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said DOT&PF  has a  copy of  the Shareware  software,                                                              
which  was produced  by the  State of  Iowa.   The department  has                                                              
implemented  a  trial  program  used  by  both  DOT&PF  commercial                                                              
vehicle  inspectors  and by  10  to  15 law  enforcement  officers                                                              
across  the state.    The trial  program began  January  3 and  is                                                              
scheduled to  last 90  days.  He  has been told  the users  are so                                                              
enthusiastic  about the program  that they don't  want to  wait 90                                                              
days for the program to go live.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  added  that DOT&PF  has  identified  highway  safety                                                              
money for  laptops for half of  the law enforcement officers.   He                                                              
plans to  meet with Colonel Holloway  of the Department  of Public                                                              
Safety to  determine who  should maintain  the software  and where                                                              
it should  be maintained.   Those  aspects of  the project  remain                                                              
unfunded, as well  as training of and outreach  to law enforcement                                                              
officials.     About  17   states  use   this  software;   who  is                                                              
responsible for the maintenance is a mixed bag.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:05:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH  questioned   what  the  department  is                                                              
doing internally  to speed  up the planning  process and  to begin                                                              
and   complete   projects.       She   additionally   asked   what                                                              
recommendations  DOT&PF  is  making  to alleviate  delays  due  to                                                              
federal regulations  so that state  and federal processes  can run                                                              
simultaneously.   She  said in  the last  five years  the cost  of                                                              
steel and other materials has doubled so delays are very costly.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN responded  DOT&PF is  striving  to go  faster but  is                                                              
"feeling  the sand  slip between  its toes."   The department  has                                                              
over $200 million  in projects that have gone  through the process                                                              
and are ready to  go to bid but the designs are  growing stale due                                                              
to lack of funding.   Not all projects face a  funding problem and                                                              
are completed quickly,  but in many cases the  problem is funding.                                                              
The department  may be  making progress  but sometimes  STIP rules                                                              
come along and gum up the process.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:08:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  said, for  the record, she  is inclined                                                              
to  support the  governor's proposal  to  create a  transportation                                                              
fund  or an  endowment.    She will  be  looking at  the  criteria                                                              
DOT&PF  will  use to  evaluate  the  best  use  of and  access  to                                                              
federal  funds on  very large  projects  that have  many hoops  to                                                              
jump  through   and  on  more   community-based  projects.     She                                                              
commented:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     I'm wondering if the Chair or the Vice-Chair should be                                                                     
     invited to [American Association of State Highway and                                                                      
     Transportation Officials]  AASHTO or [Western  Association of                                                              
     State  Highway   and  Transportation  Officials]   WASHTO  to                                                              
     listen to  some of  the challenges so  that we  have relevant                                                              
     information for  this committee in first hand  information as                                                              
     to  the  challenges  that  the  nation  is  facing  with  the                                                              
     current  system that  they're working  under to realize  that                                                              
     it's  not just  specific to  Alaska  but Alaska  has been  so                                                              
     dependent, as  has been said by other presenters  in the last                                                              
     two  weeks that  maybe that  recognition would  allow he  and                                                              
     the  Vice  Chair to  disseminate  to  the  rest of  us  those                                                              
     challenges  that we're  facing as  a nation  that we  need to                                                              
     sing  with other  states  to  our federal  delegation  across                                                              
     borders  on why  projects are  costing  so much.   We're  not                                                              
     using  the federal  dollars in  the way  that the feds  would                                                              
     like us  to use  [them].  They  want us to  put roads  in the                                                              
     ground,  ferries  into service,  bridges  and  infrastructure                                                              
     rebuilt  but...it  seems  like  a real  life  experience  and                                                              
     exchange  so that  we understand  very well  how Alaska  fits                                                              
     into this may be helpful.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:11:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  opined that  is an  excellent idea  and said  the CEO                                                              
Roundtable is  scheduled around  February 26 or  28.  The  CEOs of                                                              
each  state  transportation  agency  meet with  Congress  and  are                                                              
updated on the Highway  Trust Fund's status.  He  added the AASHTO                                                              
annual  meeting is  typically held  in  the fall  and lasts  about                                                              
four days.   He said  at a recent  AASHTO meeting he  learned that                                                              
Alaska is  just a  microcosm of  what all  states are  facing; all                                                              
states are  reeling from the high  cost of construction.   He said                                                              
this kind of inflation is unprecedented.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:12:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN asked  how DOT&PF's  $200 million  worth of                                                              
projects that  are planned  and waiting for  funding are  rated in                                                              
importance.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  explained that DOT&PF  uses a scored process  for the                                                              
projects  done  at the  community  level.    He pointed  out  that                                                              
DOT&PF was  recently nationally recognized  for having one  of the                                                              
best  STIP scoring  mechanisms  in the  country.   The  department                                                              
relies on its  management systems for National  Highway System and                                                              
Alaska  Highway  project  systems;   congestion  management  data,                                                              
traffic  safety data,  condition data  and the  priorities of  the                                                              
regional  directors.     He said  DOT&PF  continues  to slow  down                                                              
projects because of the funding dilemma.  He told members:                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     I will just  give you one current problem -  cost increase in                                                              
     Fairbanks  of  about  $2 million  on  a  project.   Once  the                                                              
     project  is underway,  you know, the  contractor is  working,                                                              
     you  have to  fund those  projects.   You  can't change  your                                                              
     mind.   You're now in  a contract.   We will have to  stop in                                                              
     that region  an $8 million  project on the Dalton  Highway in                                                              
     order to find  the $2 million to give to the  project that is                                                              
     active.     Then  that  project   [the  Dalton   Highway]  is                                                              
     effectively  stalled   until  we  can  find   $2  million  to                                                              
     backfill its  need.  This give  and take is going  on a daily                                                              
     basis  and with high  inflation; it  just seems  to be  a new                                                              
     paradigm as I showed you on the slide a few pages ago.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:14:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said,  in response to a question  from Chair Johansen,                                                              
that the  amount of  unfunded projects would  be much  higher than                                                              
$200  million if  other  modes  of transportation  were  included,                                                              
such as the ferry system.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked if  DOT&PF is planning  too quickly  so that                                                              
plans get stale and need to be redone.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  that is  a  real  fear  at this  moment.    He                                                              
directed  members to  the bottom  of page 7,  which addresses  the                                                              
inflationary costs DOT&PF  is facing.  He said DOT&PF  had a large                                                              
number of  projects moving  forward earlier in  the decade;  10 or                                                              
12 on  the National  Highway  System.   Only two  or three can  be                                                              
funded now.   DOT&PF and the consulting community  are staffed for                                                              
the previous level  of activity.  Projects take five  or six years                                                              
to get  through the design  process.  He  said the  one consistent                                                              
statement he hears  from staff and consultants is  that the number                                                              
of projects  on the street is not  enough for those groups.   That                                                              
reflects how short the effective dollars are.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:17:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN commented:                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     It seems  to me  just on  the broad  picture, when  you start                                                              
     doing  designs and  that gets  out there,  one, it  heightens                                                              
     the  expectation of  a project  getting done,  you know,  and                                                              
     you have to  deal with the real funding issues.   That's just                                                              
     something that  has to happen  but, again, if  we're spending                                                              
     money on plans  and the planning money goes  stale, that goes                                                              
     to money  that doesn't get  on the street for  actual digging                                                              
     and concrete  so I think that follows up  with Representative                                                              
     Fairclough about  what are you  guys doing and are  you doing                                                              
     things to  adjust to that or  not have $200 million  worth of                                                              
     plans that may end up going stale.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  replied  that  very  fear is  what  is  driving  the                                                              
earmark policy.   That drove the decision to  cancel several large                                                              
projects  that were inadequately  funded,  two examples being  the                                                              
road to  McCarthy and  the Baranof  cross-island.  The  department                                                              
only had enough earmark money to do about one-quarter of an EIS.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN asked  how DOT&PF  determines  which projects  are                                                              
ready to roll.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said he  would provide  that information  at  a later                                                              
date.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:18:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  asked about the mechanics of  how the state                                                              
ended  up with $200  million in  project designs  that are  stale.                                                              
He  asked whether  federal funds  were provided  for the  planning                                                              
phase only.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  explained that  typically the  first phase  that gets                                                              
funded  is the  environmental and  preliminary engineering  phase,                                                              
which produces  an engineering document.   In a few  cases, DOT&PF                                                              
was  able to  take those  projects one  step further  so they  are                                                              
ready to go to bid.  He furthered:                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     I think  the reason  is at  the bottom  of page  7.   Bear in                                                              
     mind,  projects  that would  have  been started  that  needed                                                              
     this  funding got  so  eroded by  inflation  they would  have                                                              
     been funded in  some cases.  They started  three, four, five,                                                              
     six,  seven years  in advance  of that  downturn of  funding.                                                              
     So you  had a  program that was  delivering so  many projects                                                              
     and you  start the  same number that  you are delivering  out                                                              
     the back  end then all of a  sudden the conveyor  belt in the                                                              
     factory  slows down but  you've got  starts that  are already                                                              
     underway and  consultants are already working on  it and now,                                                              
     as  we get  to  the point  of needing  construction  dollars,                                                              
     they simply aren't there.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:19:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN asked  if these  projects were  high up  on                                                              
the priority list  because they got design funding  under the STIP                                                              
but, when  it came time  to deliver them,  DOT&PF found  its money                                                              
wasn't stretching far  enough and had to decide  which projects to                                                              
move  forward  because  they were  deemed  less  meritorious  than                                                              
those that were funded.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that is  correct and  the problem was  caused by                                                              
not having  sustainable, reliable  funds that  are indexed  to the                                                              
cost of construction.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:20:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN  asked if  this  process is  continuing  so                                                              
that more projects will be taken out of the queue.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  that  is very  likely,  but  DOT&PF  is  being                                                              
judicious about  stopping or  slowing projects.   The  new earmark                                                              
policy will  stop several projects  that DOT&PF knew could  not be                                                              
funded.    The department  is  in  a difficult  conundrum  and  is                                                              
trying  to   be  mindful   of  the   implications  to   staff  and                                                              
consultants.  He added:                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     That's the one  thing under our constitution.   We don't have                                                              
     a dedicated  fund.  We don't  have these ... tools  to adjust                                                              
     revenue.  It's  unusual.  Most states have that  but even the                                                              
     states that  have it are having  problems so I don't  want to                                                              
     paint  that picture too  rosy.   We are  in a position  where                                                              
     the  only thing  we have is  what's appropriated  to  us each                                                              
     year  and  we  are  in  an  era  now  where  even  what  gets                                                              
     appropriated to  us gets taken  back in some cases  so you'll                                                              
     see some  slides here  a little  deeper in the  presentations                                                              
     on  rescissions where,  you know,  next year  the $9  billion                                                              
     rescission at  hand.  It's already  written in law.   It will                                                              
     take a law to undo it.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:21:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH questioned  whether  contracts are  let                                                              
when funds are about  to lapse in October with  the federal fiscal                                                              
year, because those funds can be spent for the planning process.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said there used  to be a scramble  at the end  of the                                                              
fiscal  year to  make  sure no  funds  lapsed.   However,  several                                                              
years ago  the federal  government allowed  states to  do advanced                                                              
construction  [AC].   That is  a financing  technique where  state                                                              
dollars  are  used   to  construct  projects  but   the  state  is                                                              
reimbursed with federal  dollars at a later date.   At present, if                                                              
any funds are about  to lapse at year's end, DOT&PF  rushes to pay                                                              
off those advanced  constructions.  That gives  DOT&PF an infinite                                                              
ability  to absorb  lapsing dollars.   He said  to his  knowledge,                                                              
DOT&PF has never lapsed a formula dollar.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:23:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  said she believes DOT&PF  and Anchorage                                                              
have  done  a good  job  of  making  sure that  those  monies  are                                                              
circulated inside  the state.   She asked  Mr. Ottesen  whether he                                                              
believes   that  Congress   will   address   the  nation's   aging                                                              
infrastructure  by  appropriating   funds,  especially  after  the                                                              
collapse of the Minnesota bridge.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  indicated a  report  issued  to Congress  last  week                                                              
recommended  the Highway  Trust Fund be  radically overhauled  and                                                              
that funding  be tripled  and indexed to  inflation.   However, he                                                              
said  he was  told  that  project is  dead  on arrival  until  the                                                              
election is over.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:24:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  felt it is  not the time to  consider a                                                              
gas tax  in Alaska,  but said  Alaska  has one of  the lowest  gas                                                              
taxes in the nation.   She noted Alaska has generated  six federal                                                              
dollars for  every $1 the  state spends  and Congress is  aware of                                                              
Alaska's low  gas tax, which is  one reason the federal  funds are                                                              
decreasing.  She asked when Alaska last increased its gas tax.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the  tax was increased  to 8  cents in  1961, at                                                              
which  time  it was  the  highest  in the  nation.   The  tax  was                                                              
decreased  to 7  cents in  1964  and raised  to 8  cents again  in                                                              
1967.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:26:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   FAIRCLOUGH  reiterated   that  Alaska's   federal                                                              
delegation is confronted  with the fact that Alaska's  gas tax has                                                              
not increased  since 1967  when it  tries to  lobby for  funds for                                                              
the state.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the  2030 report contains  a lot of  information                                                              
on that  subject and  that the Administration  agrees  an increase                                                              
to the gas tax is not the solution.  He explained:                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The  $50 million  that would  come from  the proposed  Alaska                                                              
     Transportation  Fund, which is  a start, not  necessarily the                                                              
     end of  that idea, it's just  something that we need  to grow                                                              
     to  really be  truly meaningful,  would  take a  12 cent  per                                                              
     gallon  gas tax  increase to  achieve $50  million per  year.                                                              
     That would  have to grow  from 8 cents  to 20 cents.   I read                                                              
     just  today that  the  average household  in  America is  now                                                              
     paying  almost $1,000  more  per year  for  gasoline so  they                                                              
     don't need any more gas taxes.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH said  for the  record that  she is  not                                                              
suggesting an  increase but  she surmised it  is a leverage  point                                                              
that could  have been used  in the past  that is inaccessible  now                                                              
because of the cost of fuel.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:27:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER said  the  increases shown  on  page 7  are                                                              
shocking.   The  cost of  pavement  in Alaska  has doubled  almost                                                              
twice  as much as  the U.S.  average.   He asked  what is  causing                                                              
that drastic increase.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN replied  Alaska had a very heated  construction market                                                              
and  the number  of  firms  consolidated. Factors  like  insurance                                                              
have increased the  cost, as well as the sheer  number of bidders.                                                              
When  three  companies  bid  rather   than  six,  the  price  will                                                              
increase.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KELLER asked  if  there any  problems with  bidder                                                              
qualifications.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said other than requiring  a bid bond  and insurance,                                                              
the bar to entry is fairly low.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. KELLER asked if the graph shows actual dollars.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said no,  it is indexed  to 100.   He explained,  "So                                                              
basically  the  costs   in  2000  were  indexed  to   100  and  so                                                              
everything  is  relative  basically  as  a  percentage  from  that                                                              
year."    He   further  explained  that  the  price   of  oil  and                                                              
construction  declined  for  about   three  years  throughout  the                                                              
decade  but  then  it increased  dramatically.    He  noted  those                                                              
numbers  are not  estimates;  they  are a  sample  based upon  the                                                              
entire  spectrum of  bid tabs the  department  opens that  had two                                                              
bid items: earthwork and asphalt.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:30:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN asked  whether  the $200  million worth  of                                                              
projects  now on  the  shelf were  designed  with  STIP funds  and                                                              
whether  their inactive  status could  become a  liability to  the                                                              
state.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN replied,  "Representative Doogan,  absolutely.   That                                                              
is clearly  one of the implications  and it is clearly  one of the                                                              
things we are constantly managing."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:30:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked the amount  for which  the state is  "on the                                                              
hook".                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  the design process typically accounts  for 15 to                                                              
20 percent of the  $200 million, which would amount  to $30 or $40                                                              
million.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:31:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  referred to  the advanced construction  accounting                                                              
format  and asked  if  DOT&PF is  satisfied  with the  flexibility                                                              
that provides.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  DOT&PF  routinely uses  advanced  construction.                                                              
That  tool became  available in  the mid-1990s.   During  DOT&PF's                                                              
analysis  of that  tool, it  realized the  state has  no law  that                                                              
allows  or   prohibits  its   use.     The  backlog  of   advanced                                                              
construction  was about  $100 million  at the  end of the  Knowles                                                              
Administration.   At the end of the Murkowski  Administration, the                                                              
amount had  increased to  $300 million.   The department  has been                                                              
trying to slow its  use and reduce the overhang.   So, contractors                                                              
have  been paid  with state  dollars for  a lot of  work that  has                                                              
been  done but  DOT&PF is  waiting on  federal dollars.   He  said                                                              
postponing  payment  for  one  or  two years  is  not  good  funds                                                              
management.   He noted the States  of New Jersey and Texas  use it                                                              
for all projects.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:33:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  NEUMAN asked the  amount of advanced  construction                                                              
funds the  state owes right  now.  He  commented that  between the                                                              
amount  owed  and borrowing  money  through  bonds, the  state  is                                                              
putting a lot on its credit card.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  acknowledged that is a  fear.  He explained  the $300                                                              
million is similar  to a line of  credit so it does  not mean that                                                              
much cash  has been expended.   He provided the  following example                                                              
of how advanced construction can be used in a meaningful way:                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     The contract  to re-power a  ferry would require  perhaps two                                                              
     years.      One  year,  once  you  award  the  contract...the                                                              
     contractor  [would] simply  order  the engines  and wait  for                                                              
     them  to be  manufactured.   He  wouldn't  do any  work.   He                                                              
     wouldn't  even put  the ship  in  the yard  until the  second                                                              
     year when he finally had engines on hand ready to install.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     But you  have it under a  single contract because  you want a                                                              
     single  entity to  be responsible.   So  you AC the  project,                                                              
     let's say,  in 2006 and  it's a $20  million contract  but $2                                                              
     [million]  of  it is  for engines  so  he  spends $2  million                                                              
     buying  the engines,  ordering them.   You  reimburse him  $2                                                              
     million  in state funds.   The  other $18  million is  on the                                                              
     books  as  an AC  but  no money  is  transacted.   The  state                                                              
     hasn't  put $18 million  out.   We come  along to  the second                                                              
     year.   The  ship goes  in the yard.   That's  the year  that                                                              
     we've identified  federal funds in  the STIP to pay  off that                                                              
     contract and so  at the peak of that AC, $2  million of state                                                              
     funds were  put out without  reimbursement, not the  full $20                                                              
     million.    But on the books  it would read as a  $20 million                                                              
     AC  so you  have to  kind of  look  at the  second number  to                                                              
     understand the  full degree.  I believe right  how our second                                                              
     number  is in  the  range of  $50 or  $60  million, not  $300                                                              
     million.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:35:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked if the state is waiting for the                                                                     
federal government to reimburse $50 million right now.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN affirmed it is.  The Department of Revenue watches                                                                  
that amount and will stop DOT&PF if it believes DOT&PF is                                                                       
getting ahead of itself.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:36:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     That's  the part  that I questioned  is  making sure  that we                                                              
     follow  through   a  public  process,  an   open  transparent                                                              
     process that the  public knows where that money  is spent so,                                                              
     if  we've got  capital budget  projects  that we're  funding,                                                              
     how  does that  look  when  it goes  through  finance and  it                                                              
     comes through  here?   I mean how  does the Legislature,  who                                                              
     is in  charge of spending  the state's  money, how do  we see                                                              
     that?                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN commented that this is where it gets very                                                                           
interesting.  He continued:                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Let  me  make  a  parallel.   If  you  look  at  the  federal                                                              
     aviation program,  it's been AC'd  for decades.   That's just                                                              
     how that  program works.  The  state is obligated  to pay for                                                              
     everything right  up until almost  the end and that  can take                                                              
     years and  then finally get  reimbursement.  So  that program                                                              
     has been  AC'd and has  been AC'd  and it's just  the natural                                                              
     course  of events.   That's  how  FAA does  things.   Federal                                                              
     Highways  is willing  to pay  you as  you go  along and  they                                                              
     don't require  you to wait until certain stages  of a project                                                              
     are completed.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     So when  they authorize AC,  and it is authorized  in federal                                                              
     law, like  I said the  state started  small.  We  didn't even                                                              
     show it  in the STIP.  We  didn't make any reflection  of it.                                                              
     We  just  said  we  have  authority  to  receive  and  expend                                                              
     federal funds  and we always  - every project on  the federal                                                              
     highway  side starts  with state  dollars but  in some  cases                                                              
     the state dollars  are reimbursed as quickly as  two or three                                                              
     days  because now  reimbursement  occurs twice  a  week.   It                                                              
     occurs  electronically.     Our   computer  talks   to  their                                                              
     computer and the money moves.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     So...what  we're  doing  is  extending that  period  of  time                                                              
     between the  state expenditure and the  federal reimbursement                                                              
     and  we're  doing  it  now probably  in  the  most  judicious                                                              
     manner that  I'm aware of.   I watched this occur  as sort of                                                              
     a subordinate  in the past  and now I  supervise it.   Like I                                                              
     said, we  are managing it downward.   We're trying  to reduce                                                              
     the backlog by $10 or $15 million each year.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:38:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     One of  the things that  got us into  the AC kind of  deep in                                                              
     the  barrel was in  '05, when  our federal  funds hit  one of                                                              
     those  hiccups in  the road,  we thought  we were getting  so                                                              
     much money.   If you  remember that  year, that was  the year                                                              
     that  Congress  issued  I think  it  was  7 or  8  continuing                                                              
     resolutions.   They were giving  us money in dribs  and drabs                                                              
     and  we'd  gotten  to  the  tenth month  and  we  had  gotten                                                              
     10/12ths  of our  money and  it's pretty  easy to  calculate.                                                              
     If you've  gotten 10/12ths, well  you're going to get  2 more                                                              
     12ths.   That's what we thought.   We were sort of  fat, dumb                                                              
     and  happy.  Then  bingo, we  got a  notice that said  you're                                                              
     not  only not  getting  the  last 2/12ths,  pay  back a  good                                                              
     chunk of some  of that 10/12ths.  We owed money  back at that                                                              
     point.   We had about, if  I recall right, about  $55 million                                                              
     in  projects that  were bid-ready,  ready to  go, the  public                                                              
     wanted,  we AC'd them.   That  was when we  kind of  got deep                                                              
     into it at that moment in time.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     So we  did that for the  greater good to keep  the contractor                                                              
     community happy,  to meet expectations of the  public, and we                                                              
     knew we  would have to manage  our way back down.   We'd have                                                              
     to lower that.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:39:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     We also  have AC'd -  the other category  of AC that  I think                                                              
     is probably  there's no way  out of it  is there has  been an                                                              
     awful lot  of ER work, emergency  relief work.  That,  by its                                                              
     nature, has to  be done AC.  The state goes  out and responds                                                              
     to   that  emergency,   puts  up  state   dollars  and   gets                                                              
     reimbursed  with emergency relief  dollars.  Those  emergency                                                              
     relief  dollars have been  very scarce  at the federal  level                                                              
     because  of Katrina  and other hurricanes  and floods  around                                                              
     the  country.   There's only  been so  much to  go around  so                                                              
     you're  sort of  on a  list  and you  wait your  turn to  get                                                              
     reimbursed.  So ER work, by its very nature, is also AC'd.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:40:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation, as follows:                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     ... This is where  we get into some of the nitty  gritty.   I                                                              
     want  to talk about  the two  kinds of  funding terms  in the                                                              
     federal   highway   world,   known  as   apportionments   and                                                              
     obligation  limit.  I  apologize for  bringing you  down into                                                              
     this  technical detail  but  if you  want  to understand  our                                                              
     world,  this  is  where  it   begins.    This  is  where  the                                                              
     management of the STIP is really taking place.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Apportionment  is essentially  a promise.   It's given  to us                                                              
     in a  series of different  categories.   It has a  shelf life                                                              
     of four  years -  that is you  don't have  to spend  it right                                                              
     away.   As  you'll see  in a minute,  you can't  spend  it by                                                              
     itself anyway.   It's sort  of a 1  plus 1 equals  1 formula.                                                              
     One dollar of  apportionment [plus] one dollar  of obligation                                                              
    limit actually yields one real dollar of spendable cash.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Apportionment  is  determined   in  the  authorization  bill,                                                              
     which occurs every  five or six years.  It  is spendable only                                                              
     with obligation  limit, or  OL, and having  some surplus.   I                                                              
     should   say  Congress   has  historically   given  us   more                                                              
     apportionment than  they give [obligation] limit.   The ratio                                                              
     has  varied  year  by year.    In  the  last few  years  it's                                                              
     between 85 and  90 percent.  You're going  to, by definition,                                                              
     you're going  to build up a surplus of  apportionment because                                                              
     you just  simply don't  have enough  obligation limit  to use                                                              
     it all.   I should  add right  now surplus apportionment  not                                                              
     only provides  flexibility, as I'll explain a  little further                                                              
     in, it  has also been the  raw material that  creates SHAKWAK                                                              
     funds.     So  we'll  talk   about  that  with   SHAKWAK  but                                                              
     apportionment is essentially the input to a SHAKWAK dollar.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Obligation  limit is  what sets  the cap  on total  spending.                                                              
     You  get to  spend up  to your  obligation  limit, hence  the                                                              
     name.   So this  is when  Congress, you  know, the  green eye                                                              
     shades  part   of  Congress,  the  Finance   Committees,  get                                                              
     together  and they  set  the obligation  limit  on an  annual                                                              
     basis  whereas  apportionment  could  have been  decided  six                                                              
     years  in the past.   Obligation  limit has  a shelf  life of                                                              
     one  year.   This  is  what  lapses  so  when we  talk  about                                                              
     lapsing  federal money,  it's [the]  obligation limit  that's                                                              
     lapsing.  It's use it or lose it.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:42:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     There  literally is  a process  in August  two months  before                                                              
     the  end of the  federal fiscal  year where  we're asked  can                                                              
     you spend  all your  obligation and, if  so, could  you spend                                                              
     more  and how  much.   That's  when we  actually  end up  and                                                              
     historically  have always gotten  plus obligation  limit from                                                              
     other states, typically in the range of $3 to $5 million.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     It  is spendable  only  with a  dollar  of apportionment  so,                                                              
     it's like  I said, a ratio.   You've got to match  one to one                                                              
     to get  one.  It usually,  historically, has been  smaller in                                                              
     total amount  and let me also  add what I said earlier  in my                                                              
     presentation.   There are a lot of generalities  here.  There                                                              
     are  dozens of  exceptions to  these rules  so the money  has                                                              
     gotten very  complex.  Some  of the apportionment  comes with                                                              
     its own  "ob" limit and it's  one to one already.   You don't                                                              
     move  it around  but those  tend to  be the  minority of  the                                                              
     program.   The vast majority  of it follows these  rules that                                                              
     I've laid out here.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     So  at  the bottom  of  page  8 I  talk  about the  types  of                                                              
     apportionment.     Depending   upon  how   you  count   these                                                              
     categories,  there [are]  as many  as 20,  there may  even be                                                              
     more than  that.  You have  to consider the  transit program.                                                              
     That's because  there are  categories and subcategories  and,                                                              
     in  some  cases,  two  or   three  subcategories  to  a  main                                                              
     category.   But the core  apportionments, the one  where most                                                              
     of  our  work gets  done,  is  the National  Highway  System,                                                              
     Surface Transportation  Program, Interstate  Maintenance, the                                                              
     Congestion  Mitigation  or   Air  Quality,  sometimes  called                                                              
     CMAC,  and the bridge  apportionment, so  those are  known as                                                              
     the five  core apportionments.   If you look at  our funding,                                                              
     that's  where most  of  the money  comes  to us  is in  those                                                              
     categories.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:44:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     A couple of  key points.  The Surface  Transportation Program                                                              
     category  is the one  that we  share with the  MPOs.   By law                                                              
     that  is  the  one that  goes  to  MPOs.   The  equity  bonus                                                              
     category  is in  the arcane  formulas found  in federal  law.                                                              
     We  earn these  dollars through  a formula.   Each number  of                                                              
     miles, amount  of traffic,  you know blah,  blah, blah  - all                                                              
     these sort  of metrics.    If we  only got our  dollars under                                                              
     those  formulas  right  there,  we  wouldn't  get  very  many                                                              
     dollars.  There's  then this category known  as equity bonus,                                                              
     which  is actually  our largest  category by  a large  degree                                                              
     and equity  bonus is  how Congress makes  up for  states like                                                              
     Alaska that  would otherwise be shortchanged  from the strict                                                              
     adherence to the latest formula they've drawn.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Prior  to  this   bill,  equity  bonus  was   called  minimum                                                              
     guarantee.   Prior to  minimum guarantee  it had  a different                                                              
     name so it's a category that changes names.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:45:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     The equity bonus  money gets distributed to  those other five                                                              
     categories  in the  same proportion  that  you received  that                                                              
     money  to begin  with  so if  you  got 20  percent  of it  in                                                              
     National  Highway System,  20 percent  of equity bonus  would                                                              
     be converted  to National Highway  System.  So  equity bonus,                                                              
     before it's all  said and done, it gets changed  and we treat                                                              
     it like one of the other categories.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     What  apportionment does,  and  this is  something I  haven't                                                              
     said  yet, is define  how you  can use  the money,  the rules                                                              
     that govern  the money,  the eligibility  of the money.   You                                                              
     can't  spend  bridge  money on  a  ferry.   You  can't  spend                                                              
     safety  money  on  a  defective   ferry  that  has  a  safety                                                              
     problem.   You can  only spend  it on  a defective  road that                                                              
     has a  documented safety  problem.  If  I'm getting  my point                                                              
     [across],  every one of  these categories  has an  arcane set                                                              
     of  rules  and  eligibility.    As  we  get  into  the  other                                                              
     apportionments  at the  bottom of the  list, there's  safety,                                                              
     transportation   enhancement,    metropolitan   planning,   a                                                              
     statewide planning  and research  category, a safe  routes to                                                              
     school category,  recreational trails, a category  for a rail                                                              
     highway crossing,  a category for border  infrastructure, and                                                              
     then  several transit  categories of  funding as well  coming                                                              
     out of the transit side.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     So when  we write  a STIP we're  not writing  it to  a single                                                              
     flavor of  money and one size fits  all.  We have  to write a                                                              
     STIP  that also  meets  all of  the  different funding  rules                                                              
     associated  with  the amount  of  funding each  category  has                                                              
    received.  I'll stop there.  I think that's probably....                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:46:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked what apportionment means when he                                                                    
tries to add that to obligations to get actual spendable cash.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that question  can probably be best  answered by                                                              
explaining  the reason  for this  system.   The  question has  two                                                              
answers.   Most federal  agencies do  not use  this system;  it is                                                              
unique to the  Federal Highway Program.   He said the  FAA or Army                                                              
Corps of  Engineers appropriates  money one  year at  a time.   He                                                              
continued:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     At  the  time   in  '56  when  they  said   let's  build  the                                                              
     interstate,  they knew  they  were into  a  long year  multi-                                                              
     decade  program to  achieve  that interstate.    They had  to                                                              
     give  states some  degree  of certainty  so  that they  could                                                              
     build  a  long  term  program  and  accomplish  a  series  of                                                              
     projects  and  know  that   future  funding  would  be  there                                                              
     because  if  you are  going  to  build  a 100-mile  chunk  of                                                              
     highway,  you don't  build  it in  one contract.   You  might                                                              
     build  it in 10  contracts.   So you  better have  confidence                                                              
     that  you  aren't going  to  get  about  50 miles  into  that                                                              
     highway and have the money to stop.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     So  the  authorizing  committees in  Congress  who  authorize                                                              
     these  bills, they  used  to be  four-year  bills, then  they                                                              
     slowly blossomed  to be six-year bills, authorizations  as we                                                              
     call  them,  and now  SAFETEA-LU  was  a five-year  bill  but                                                              
     that's only  because it  was a year  late getting out  of the                                                              
     Congress.  It was intended to be six years.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     The  authorizing committees,  which  are  the subject  matter                                                              
     committees, the  Transportation Committees, if  you would, in                                                              
     Congress, they  do the authorization.  They're  trying to see                                                              
     as far  as six years  into the future  how much  funding will                                                              
     there be,  and so they're sort  of setting a plan,  setting a                                                              
     target.    But  the  appropriation  committees  in  Congress,                                                              
     they're  the ones  that  year-to-year have  to  look at  that                                                              
     Highway  Trust Fund and  say well,  there's really  only this                                                              
     much cash  so we've  got to  slow you down  a little  bit and                                                              
     they'll  set a spending  cap, the  obligation limit.   That's                                                              
     why you've got  this hybrid system.  It's like  a proxy.  You                                                              
     need two parts  to have a useful thing.  We  need one of each                                                              
     to get a dollar of expendable money.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     One is  I think of obligation  limit in my mind as  the money                                                              
     and  I think  of apportionment  as the  rules.   Only when  I                                                              
     couple the two together is there something useful.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:50:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH asked  whether DOT&PF  is working  with                                                              
the federal  delegation on border  responsibilities when  it comes                                                              
to safety and border control.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  a lot of border state activity  has taken place.                                                              
The  department  has  participated  in  a  northern  border  state                                                              
consortium.   He pointed  out that Alaska  has a relatively  small                                                              
number of people crossing its border.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:51:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH  asked  if Pacific  NorthWest  Economic                                                              
Region (PNWER)  or other agencies  offer grants or  pilot programs                                                              
to address border issues.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  he has  not heard  of  any.   He said  Alaska's                                                              
border program  is relatively small.   Last year funds  were spent                                                              
on a 10-mile stretch  of highway from the ferry  terminal.  Alaska                                                              
does not have that much infrastructure close to the border.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:52:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN  asked  for further  clarification  on  the                                                              
relationship  between  apportionment  and  obligation limit.    He                                                              
asked whether  apportionment is the  amount of money the  State of                                                              
Alaska can receive from each program over a six-year period.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN explained  apportionment  is  authorized annually  so                                                              
DOT&PF  gets a  spreadsheet  showing the  amount  by category  and                                                              
year.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN asked if it is money.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  not  without   the  obligation  limit.     He                                                              
explained:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     One of  the best analogies  I've heard is you  could actually                                                              
     do it  with props but I'll  just explain it.  If  you imagine                                                              
     I  had several  different  shaped  glasses here,  some  large                                                              
     ones and some  small ones and some in between  ones, and each                                                              
     one  of  those was  a  kind  of apportionment  and  its  size                                                              
     represented how  much money we could spend  in that category.                                                              
     And then I  had a pitcher of money known  as obligation limit                                                              
     that the  sum of the fluid  in that picture equaled  about 85                                                              
     percent  of the  capacity of  all the  glasses.   I can  pour                                                              
     that any  way we want  but at  some point I  run out so  if I                                                              
     poured  into NHS and  STP dollars,  I can  do those  kinds of                                                              
     projects  to the  maximum  extent they  are  available.   Now                                                              
     I'll  leave some  of that  other apportionment  on the  table                                                              
     unused  or unfilled  because  we didn't  have  enough in  the                                                              
     pitcher, the obligation limit.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:53:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN  asked if  the  obligation  limit could  be                                                              
lower than the apportionment but not higher.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said it  can be  higher and  has been  in a few  rare                                                              
cases   but,   "you   manage  that   because   you   had   surplus                                                              
apportionment  from prior  years, apportionment  having the  four-                                                              
year  shelf life  lasting year-to-year  and  the obligation  limit                                                              
having a one-year shelf life."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:54:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     This  is the arcane  detail of  managing the  STIP.   This is                                                              
     what my  staff deals with.   If you  look at our  STIP you'll                                                              
     see  we reflect  the  type of  apportionment  going to  every                                                              
     project with a  series of codes.  When you  actually get into                                                              
     managing  it  on  the  accounting side,  it  gets  even  more                                                              
     detailed.   It's not  only bridge funds,  it is  bridge funds                                                              
     from the year  2007 or it's bridge funds from  the year 2005.                                                              
     Our  general management  of  the STIP  has  done two  things:                                                              
     always  use old apportionment  first so  you don't  lapse it,                                                              
     always  use the  most inflexible  first so  you preserve  the                                                              
     most flexible.  That's important in a number of ways.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     I'll give you  an example of that.  We could  be building the                                                              
     reconstruction of  the Parks Highway.  It has  a bridge in it                                                              
     and it  has a realignment  of a curve  where there  have been                                                              
     several  deaths  and  so, when  we  look  at that,  say,  $20                                                              
     million  project,  the bridge  costs  $5 million,  the  curve                                                              
     work costs  $3 million, and the  rest of it was  $12 million.                                                              
     We can allocate  bridge money to the bridge,  safety money to                                                              
     the curve  reconstruction, and NHS  money to the rest  of it.                                                              
     We would  do that based upon  the bid tabs right  down to the                                                              
     dollar at  the time we processed  the federal paperwork.   So                                                              
     we do it in  the STIP as a planning number.   We do it in the                                                              
     accounting  documents  right  down to  the  penny  literally.                                                              
     I've  got  a  couple  of  staff  that  do  this.    They  are                                                              
     absolutely top  notch and, I'll  tell you, when  those people                                                              
     get sick, DOT sneezes.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:56:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER  asked if it  is safe to say  the difference                                                              
between the apportionment  and the obligation limit  is set by the                                                              
politics  between the Transportation  Committee  and the  Ways and                                                              
Means Committee at the federal level.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  he  believes  it  has  more  to  do  with  the                                                              
functions   of  the  committees   rather   than  politics.     The                                                              
authorization  committee  is  two  to  five  years  ahead  of  the                                                              
individual   appropriations   committees.     The   appropriations                                                              
committees look at the amount in the Highway Trust Fund.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:56:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER asked about the reliability.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  pointed  out when  DOT&PF  received  its  SAFETEA-LU                                                              
funds during  the first  year of  its implementation,  it received                                                              
80  percent of  its fund  in  some categories  and  85 percent  in                                                              
others.  DOT&PF  used 85 percent to plan for future  years and set                                                              
the STIP at that  point.  He noted the amount  has increased to 90                                                              
percent in the last  few years, which has allowed  DOT&PF to cover                                                              
a few cost  overruns without having  to stop another project.   He                                                              
stated the STIP  must be based on a reasonable  estimate of future                                                              
revenue but DOT&PF doesn't receive notices in a timely manner.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:58:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Let's move  to page 9.   You're going  to hear me talk  a lot                                                              
     about apportionment  because it  really has become  an issue.                                                              
     The  2008 balances  of apportionment  are  at historic  lows,                                                              
     certainly  the lowest I've  seen in my  career.  We  only had                                                              
     about $40  million left of  surplus apportionment.   About $7                                                              
     million  of that  was in  our most  flexible categories,  the                                                              
     kind  of categories  we  really  want to  hang  on  to.   $33                                                              
     million of  it was in the  more restricted categories.   Just                                                              
     to  give you one  balance,  the balance  of any trust  funds,                                                              
     the kind  of dollars  that would work  on the Parks  Highway,                                                              
     for  example,  45  cents.    I  could  dive  into  the  couch                                                              
     cushions and double  the amount of money going  to the NHS at                                                              
     the  start of  the year,  just  from my  own little  personal                                                              
     contribution.   45  cents -  that's  the kind  of money  that                                                              
     would  build a ferry,  for example.   If we  want to  build a                                                              
     ferry,  we have 45  cents on  the books at  the start  of the                                                              
     year.  It kind of speaks to the problem we're facing.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:59:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     We also learned  with the 2008 fund notices  that we're going                                                              
     to get  less apportionment  this year than obligation  limit,                                                              
     the very issue  that you raise, Representative  Keller.  What                                                              
     that  means  is  not  only   do  we  have  to  use  all  that                                                              
     apportionment that  we're going to get in  precisely the same                                                              
     ratio that  we receive  it, we're going  to have to  use most                                                              
     of this $40  million of surplus apportionment to  use all the                                                              
     obligation  limit.    It basically  turns  our  world  upside                                                              
     down.   Where  before we had  flexibility  and we could  make                                                              
     last  minute   adjustments  because  we  had   ample  surplus                                                              
     apportionment...if  a bridge  project stalled  for a  permit,                                                              
     we  could  move in  a  highway  reconstruction project.    We                                                              
     can't  do that  under this  new  scenario.   We've spent  the                                                              
     better  part of  the last six  weeks talking  to staff  about                                                              
     this,  going  to the  regions,  trying  to explain  to  them,                                                              
     because a  lot of our regions  don't want to deal  with this.                                                              
     To  them this  is just  gobbledy gook  and just  tell me  how                                                              
     much money I've  got and let me do my job.   That's their job                                                              
     is to engineer and build projects.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Unfortunately,  with  these changes  that  have  come out  of                                                              
     decision   makers  inside  the   Beltway,  we've   lost  that                                                              
     flexibility.   We're going  to have a  $6 million  balance in                                                              
     surplus apportionment  at the end  of '08.  You'll  see later                                                              
     on  why   that's  happened.     It's  happening   because  of                                                              
     rescissions.   There's  been  a pattern  of rescissions  that                                                              
     began  about three  years ago  where they  take back  surplus                                                              
     apportionment.   They're  doing that  to show budget  savings                                                              
     at the national  level.  It's essentially a  direct result of                                                              
     the  Iraq war.   They  need to  find a  way to  not make  the                                                              
     budget look  like its gone so  deep in red ink, so  by taking                                                              
     back  apportionment, they  can show  a savings.   Never  mind                                                              
     that  apportionment without  obligation limit  is not  money.                                                              
     It's just a promise that has never been fulfilled.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:00:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked Mr. Ottesen how he thinks this will                                                                 
play out in the next five years.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said a "perfect storm" is building.  He stated:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     We  have  a lot  coming.    We have  a  2010  reauthorization                                                              
     coming.   You have a  commission that's proposing  a dramatic                                                              
     and complete rewrite  of the rules, top to  bottom, throw the                                                              
     whole thing  out.  It's been  50 years of this.   Let's start                                                              
     with a fresh  idea.  Unfortunately the fresh  ideas are, just                                                              
     to  give you  a  taste of  it,  none of  them  look good  for                                                              
     Alaska.   They  would focus  on the  50 largest  metropolitan                                                              
     areas,   for  example.     Anchorage   doesn't  rise   to  51                                                              
     nationally,  just  for example.    That's just  one  example.                                                              
     They would  focus on high  speed rail and freight  corridors.                                                              
     None  of that  solves our  transportation needs  at the  road                                                              
     level.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     I think  perhaps the biggest fear  of the future is  an awful                                                              
     lot  of talk  about greenhouse  gases,  carbon footprint  and                                                              
     those   kinds   of  rules   coming   to   be  tied   to   the                                                              
     transportation program.   In fact the advocates  of that have                                                              
     already got a  name for the new T, it will be  Green T.  It's                                                              
     got traction,  I can tell  you this  right now, in  the halls                                                              
     of  Congress.    Green  T could  start  to  talk  about  more                                                              
     transit,  more walking,  more  bicycles, less  cars, and,  if                                                              
     you  think about  it, Congress  has  used the  transportation                                                              
     program  over  the decades  to  influence the  policies  they                                                              
     want  to see  happen,  whether  it be  clean  air or  drunken                                                              
     driving,  they attach  rules  to transportation  money.   You                                                              
     can almost bet this will happen.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:02:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     So  while you  were out, Mr.  Chairman,  I talked about  this                                                              
     fact  that we  are going  to see  our apportionment  balances                                                              
     drive to  historic lows.  They  are already at  historic lows                                                              
     at  $40  million   starting  this  year.    If   we  use  our                                                              
     obligation limit,  they'll be at about $6 million  at the end                                                              
     of the year.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     There  are four  consequences to  this change  in our  world.                                                              
     One, STIP  projects will now  be restricted to  whatever kind                                                              
     of apportionment  we have on hand.   I talked to  you I think                                                              
     on Saturday.   The STIP is losing flexibility to  build the -                                                              
     kind of our  core mission, building roads,  rebuilding roads,                                                              
     that  kind of  thing.   What  we're losing  is  that kind  of                                                              
     money.    What  we're  gaining  in  its  stead  is  the  more                                                              
     restricted  money.  We  will gain those  dollars back  and be                                                              
     spendable  in bridge  and safety  in particular.   Those  are                                                              
     two  categories  that  are  really very  well  supplied  with                                                              
     apportionment.   We  will  have about  a  $45 million  bridge                                                              
     program  this year  and about  a $40  million highway  safety                                                              
     program.   What's especially critical  is we have  to deliver                                                              
     those projects  and not have hiccups, not  have permit slips,                                                              
     not have  other slips,  or those  dollars will simply  vanish                                                              
     and  leave the state.   That's  a first.   It never  happened                                                              
     before.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
 3:04:24 PM                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN asked if those funds will automatically                                                                   
vanish or vanish due to rescission.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  clarified that  every August  the state must  certify                                                              
that it  is going to use  the obligation limit.   If it  does not,                                                              
it  must give  those  funds  up.   That  is  known as  the  August                                                              
redistribution.   He said DOT&PF's  2030 plan is out  for comment.                                                              
He must  wrap that up  and begin a  STIP amendment to  reflect all                                                              
of the  changes that  have occurred in  the 2008 funding  notices.                                                              
That  process will  take  close  to four  months.    Once that  is                                                              
complete, DOT&PF can  begin the work to make sure  those funds are                                                              
not lost.   Essentially,  that is  squeezing  one year's worth  of                                                              
work into  two and a  half months.   His staff will  probably have                                                              
to work on weekends.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:05:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   DOOGAN  asked  whether   DOT&PF  needs   to  make                                                              
structural  changes   to  address  the  new  reality   of  federal                                                              
funding.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the structural change  that needs to  be made is                                                              
state recognition  that this  program that has  served it  so well                                                              
for 50 years is at a crossroads.  He told members:                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     And  for  us  to have  a  successful  transportation  program                                                              
     going  forward, we  will  desperately need  to  have a  state                                                              
     funded program  to come up to.   If I have one message  in my                                                              
     long range  plan in looking at  all of this, this  program is                                                              
     not going  to meet all our  needs.  We're not going  to build                                                              
     the ferries we  need to build.  We're not going  to build the                                                              
     bridges and  roads we need to build  or even keep up  - and I                                                              
     would  encourage you  if you  haven't read  it, to read  2030                                                              
     because it paints this picture pretty well.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:06:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOOGAN  questioned whether the problem  is a matter                                                              
of  making changes  in order  to  manipulate or  meet the  federal                                                              
rules or that Alaska is just not going to get the money.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said he  believes the  state isn't  going to  get the                                                              
money.   At  the AASHTO  meeting  last fall,  its  staff said  the                                                              
federal  legislation  is going  to  be  focused on  strategies  to                                                              
reduce greenhouse  gases.   It will  focus on "complete  streets."                                                              
He  repeated that  a lot  of policy  shifts are  occurring at  the                                                              
national  level.   He pointed  out if  the Highway  Trust Fund  is                                                              
opened up to  high speed rail, 15  systems are ready to  be built.                                                              
The  trust fund  delivers  about  $40 billion  per  year when  the                                                              
highway  system needs  about $190  billion per  year to deal  with                                                              
population growth.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:07:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN said although  the new  system may  fit the                                                              
Lower 48's needs better, it will be worse for Alaska's needs.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  agreed with  that scenario  and characterized  Alaska                                                              
is an outlier compared to other states.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:08:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON  asked if Mr. Ottesen is  talking about real                                                              
time and  real money when  he refers to  the obligation  limit and                                                              
apportionment or  whether that is  the predicted amount  the state                                                              
will get.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said the  obligation  limit  is  real money.    Once                                                              
notified,  DOT&PF must  spend those  funds within  a year  or lose                                                              
them.  The apportionment  must be matched to  the obligation limit                                                              
but it has a four-year shelf life and then expires.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:08:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON  asked if  DOT&PF could collect  interest on                                                              
some of the funds.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN explained  the apportionment is hollow.   In addition,                                                              
interest cannot  be collected on  federal money.   DOT&PF receives                                                              
federal money after it spends state dollars on the work.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:08:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So,  I've already  spoken to  the bottom  of page  9 that  we                                                              
     have  less flexibility,  we have  to shift  projects to  meet                                                              
     the  apportionment   notices  and  there's  a   chance  these                                                              
     dollars  could leave  the state  if we don't  act with  great                                                              
     haste.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     At the  top of page  10 we talk about  SHAKWAK and I  want to                                                              
     focus on  you that SHAKWAK  is probably the  least understood                                                              
     part of  our business.   SHAKWAK is  a geological term  - the                                                              
     SHAKWAK  trench is where  the Alaska Highway  runs up  at Big                                                              
     Lake  and Lake Kluane.   It  comes from  the fact  that going                                                              
     back to the  1970s, the federal government saw  the wisdom of                                                              
     helping  pay  for the  road  between  Haines and  the  Alaska                                                              
     Highway just near Tok there and Northway.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     We've been  given different amounts  of money.  It  has grown                                                              
     over time.   The latest number  is around $30 million  a year                                                              
     to the  Canadians to work on  that Canadian portion  of those                                                              
     highways, of  the Haines highway and the Alaska  Highway but,                                                              
     again,  only in Canada.   That  program was  known in  law as                                                              
     the  Alaska Highway,  Section  218 of  Title 23,  but in  the                                                              
     Canadian  they  called  in  the  SHAKWAK  program.    They've                                                              
     called it  that for decades  so they've been  building pieces                                                              
     of  the  road,  rebuilding  pieces  of  the  road,  replacing                                                              
     bridges  and they call  it the  SHAKWAK program,  named after                                                              
     that geological figure.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Well about a  dozen years ago, Senator Stevens  modified some                                                              
     words  in  Section  218  and   it  was  very,  very  creative                                                              
     language  and  it  allowed   the  state  to  turn  in  unused                                                              
     apportionment  and have  it converted  into this thing  known                                                              
     as  SHAKWAK.   To this day  I don't  entirely understand  it,                                                              
     although that I  know it worked and it was  spendable.  Money                                                              
     never  got   appropriated.    It  never  got   authorized  by                                                              
     Congress  in  the form  of  an  authorization bill  that  you                                                              
     could see a number or in an appropriation bill.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     We essentially  said  we have this  unused apportionment,  we                                                              
     don't  have enough  obligation limit  to use  it, we  want to                                                              
     convert  it to SHAKWAK  and they would  do something  back in                                                              
     D.C. and put  it on our computer system where  we can see it,                                                              
     which  is  much  like  going  to  your  own  on-line  banking                                                              
     system.   There it  was -  millions and  tens of millions  of                                                              
     dollars of SHAKWAK  funds spendable originally  on the Alaska                                                              
     Marine Highway  System and more  recently on roads  that lead                                                              
     to the  Alaska Marine Highway  System and the  Marine Highway                                                              
     System itself.   So the eligibility has changed  a little bit                                                              
     but  the last  time  we were  able  to convert  apportionment                                                              
     into  SHAKWAK  was  2004 and,  with  these  rescissions  that                                                              
     you'll  see  here in  a  minute, we  have  not  been able  to                                                              
     convert  any further  unused apportionment.   We haven't  had                                                              
     any and  we're now out of  SHAKWAK.  The last  SHAKWAK dollar                                                              
     was  spent   last  summer.    There's  a   reason  for  that.                                                              
     SHAKWAK, we  always believed, lasted  until spent.   In other                                                              
     words,  it  had  no  end  date.    A  grammarian  at  Federal                                                              
     Highways looked  at a sentence  and said you know,  this word                                                              
     is  right here  and that  means  that the  "does not  expire"                                                              
     applies  only to the  Canadian money and  not to  the Alaskan                                                              
     SHAKWAK money.   They  gave us until  the end of  the federal                                                              
     fiscal year  '07, which  was last September,  to spend  it or                                                              
     lose it so  there was a rush last summer to  find projects to                                                              
     put  all that  SHAKWAK  money to  use and  we  got it  spent.                                                              
     Every dollar of that went to Marine Highways.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:12:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  asked  whether  DOT&PF  challenged  that  federal                                                              
decision.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said DOT&PF  thought  about it,  but DOT&PF had  good                                                              
projects to  spend it on.  The  amount was $25 million  and DOT&PF                                                              
was notified in June.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:12:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked for a list of how that money was spent.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said he would be happy to provide one.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN asked  Mr. Ottesen  if  he recalled  how much  was                                                              
spent on vessels and terminals.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said  he did not, but recalled that  the majority went                                                              
to vessels.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:13:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  pointed out those  funds were not used  for vessel                                                              
replacement because none was planned.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that is  correct, but  DOT&PF could not  put the                                                              
money toward a vessel without full funding.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked what year the road language was added.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said that  occurred at  the time  of SAFETEA-LU.   He                                                              
told members:                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     There  was  an  interesting   history  there.    The  SHAKWAK                                                              
     language  was originally  intended  to  build Juneau  access.                                                              
     It  was  actually  created  by Pat  Kemp  (ph)  at  Southeast                                                              
     Region.   The Knowles  Administration,  when it went  forward                                                              
     to Congress, changed  it to be for the Marine  Highway System                                                              
     so it started  as a road tool  and became a ferry  tool.  Now                                                              
     it's  sort  of  both  but it's  moot  because  there  are  no                                                              
     dollars behind it.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:14:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked how  long the  money was spent  specifically                                                              
on the Alaska Marine Highway System.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said the  vast  majority  was  spent on  the  marine                                                              
highways; a  small amount was spent  on the Alaska portion  of the                                                              
Haines highway.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:14:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  questioned whether the federal  language specified                                                              
those  funds were for  Juneau access  or for  marine highways  and                                                              
facilities.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said the language  was originally envisioned  to fund                                                              
Juneau  access.    Pat  Kemp  originated  the  idea  and  language                                                              
suggestion.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN asked what the actual law said.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said   the  language  was  changed   to  the  marine                                                              
highways.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:15:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked if,  until the bill  was amended  with three                                                              
or four  words,  the fund was  always  to be used  for the  marine                                                              
highways.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said that  is  correct  with  the exception  of  the                                                              
Haines highway.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN commented:                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     I'd like  to see a  breakout of how  the funds from  the time                                                              
     that new language  was enacted that added  the roads section,                                                              
     how much  money was moved over  to the Juneau access  and not                                                              
     spent on ferries.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  said he  didn't believe  any was  but would  get that                                                              
information.  For  most of 2005, DOT&PF did not  have any eligible                                                              
work to spend it on.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:16:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHANSEN  asked  if,  after  that  bill  was  amended,  the                                                              
Murkowski  Administration focused  on  using the  funds on  Juneau                                                              
access.  He  asked, "In the time  that we waited for  that project                                                              
to  be  eligible  for  the  money,   was  money  spent  on  marine                                                              
highways,  ferries, or  facilities  or were  we  just holding  the                                                              
money waiting  until we could put  the whole package  together and                                                              
build the road?"                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN said  the last  time  DOT&PF actually  created a  new                                                              
SHAKWAK  dollar was  in 2004.    Those dollars  were slowly  used,                                                              
some on fast  ferries and other projects, but  everyone was trying                                                              
to preserve it.  He furthered:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     ... I  remember talking to  then Deputy Commissioner  Taylor,                                                              
     Robin  Taylor, about  - was  look, we predicted  at the  time                                                              
     SAFETEA-LU  got  passed  we  would  be able  to  convert  $45                                                              
     million per year  of SHAKWAK.  We said we want  15 for Juneau                                                              
     access and  30 for the  marine highways.   We kind of  had an                                                              
     agreement  that  that  was  the  right  split  and  it  never                                                              
     happened  because we never  converted any  more dollars.   We                                                              
     always  told them  that the  old dollars  were yours.   We're                                                              
     not going  to do this until  we get new SHAKWAK  dollars but,                                                              
     as  the rescissions  came on  line, that  whole plan  sort of                                                              
     collapsed.  We  just lost the ability to create  SHAKWAK.  So                                                              
     all of  this was  in the talking  stage but  none of  it ever                                                              
     got into the action stage.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:18:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN  asked at what  point the grammarian  reinterpreted                                                              
the language.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said the grammarians found their voice last spring.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:18:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So  I think I've  talked -  at the  top of  page of 11,  I've                                                              
     talked  pretty  much  about  everything  at the  top  of  the                                                              
     slide.   There is a zero balance  in SHAKWAK.  All  the funds                                                              
     that  were  available  as  of  last  summer  went  to  marine                                                              
     highways for certain.  I know that to be a fact.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     I  think at  the bottom  of page  11 you see  the pattern  of                                                              
     rescissions.   This  is annual  amounts,  not cumulative  but                                                              
     annual amounts.   In  2004 there really  had been  only small                                                              
     rescissions  and then  2005 they started  taking much  larger                                                              
     rescissions.   It  grew - 2006,  2007, and  now 2008  they've                                                              
     all  been running  at about  $4 billion.   That  is about  10                                                              
     percent of the  original apportionment.  If you  just kind of                                                              
     do  the math,  you  have had  roughly  90 percent  obligation                                                              
     limit  per  year and  about  10  percent rescissions  now  so                                                              
     we're  losing ground on  apportionment.   There is  a planned                                                              
     rescission in  2009 of almost $9 billion.   Alaska's share of                                                              
     that rescission  is either  $55 million  to give back  or 86.                                                              
     Why the  difference?  I  think that's on  the top of  page, I                                                              
     believe we're  coming up here, I'm  not sure I gave  you that                                                              
     number but let me just talk about it.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:19:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     There  [are] two  interpretations  of what  Congress did  and                                                              
     ... the  legal beagles  in Federal  Highways and  in Congress                                                              
     are  looking at  how to  interpret the  words and,  depending                                                              
     upon  the interpretation,  it's either  55 or  86 billion  to                                                              
     Alaska.   We're  not well  prepared  to handle  that.   We're                                                              
     going   to  end   2008   with  a   $6   billion  surplus   of                                                              
     apportionment.    This  actually  means  our  STIP  could  go                                                              
     upside down  and by that I  mean we could end up  having more                                                              
     obligation  limit than we  have apportionment,  which doesn't                                                              
     do  anyone  any  good.   You  can't  spend  obligation  limit                                                              
     without apportionment  and you have to give it  up to another                                                              
     state by  the end of  the year.   That's kind of  where we're                                                              
     at  and when  I talk  to other  states, they're  in the  same                                                              
     predicament.   I  used to  think we'd  be in  a little  worse                                                              
     shape because,  you know, Alaska  is the only state  that can                                                              
     do SHAKWAK  and the only  state that can turn  apportionment,                                                              
     which is  hollow, into real  money.  But since  apportionment                                                              
     expires  after  four years  and  we  haven't done  a  SHAKWAK                                                              
     conversion  since 2004,  enough  years  have transpired  that                                                              
     all our old  apportionment that we had transpired  would have                                                              
     gone off  the shelf  anyway.   So I think  this is  a problem                                                              
     facing all of the states.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:21:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     You might  ask why did the  Congress plan this  rescission of                                                              
     $9 billion.   It's  because the bill  was imbalanced  when it                                                              
     passed.   SAFETEA-LU  was trying  to be  very large and  very                                                              
     beneficial  to all the  states.  You  had a president  saying                                                              
     no new taxes.   I will not  let you raise the gas  taxes.  So                                                              
     they  did all sorts  of, you  know, you'd  have to  call them                                                              
     tricks  in the  budgeting process  to add  up to the  dollars                                                              
     that they  thought would  be available  so the Highway  Trust                                                              
     Fund would  be whole.   They did things  with ethanol.   They                                                              
     did  things with  how  money  in the  Highway  Trust Fund  is                                                              
     accounted for.   They could rely upon estimates  a little bit                                                              
     more than  actual hard cash.   They did a lot of  things that                                                              
     I  think most  of  us will  never  understand  but the  whole                                                              
     purpose behind  those things was to try to  demonstrate there                                                              
     was more money.   Even at the end of the  day they said there                                                              
     is not  going to be  enough money so  what we'll do  is we'll                                                              
     postpone  this problem for  two election  cycles that  are in                                                              
     the  House, five  years away.   We'll  just make  all of  the                                                              
     states  give  back  some  of  the  money  we  gave  them  and                                                              
    Congress in the future will have to solve that problem.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     And so  you have,  this is written  into SAFETEA-LU,  it's in                                                              
     the  law.   It's  actually  been enlarged  last  year.   They                                                              
     actually enlarged  it a little  bit so it's not  like they're                                                              
     getting ready  to make it smaller.   They've enlarged  it.  I                                                              
     don't have  a good thing  to say about  it.  I just  tell you                                                              
     that when you  write a STIP that has to  be constrained, when                                                              
     you look  into the  future about  your future funding,  these                                                              
     are  some of the  problems  that we're facing  just in  doing                                                              
     our  daily job  and, from  the state's  standpoint, it  means                                                              
     there is less money to get things done.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:22:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN asked  if  there haven't  been any  SHAKWAK                                                              
conversions because rescission gets to the money first.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN  affirmed that  is correct.   He added that  a certain                                                              
amount  of  surplus must  be  left  on  the  shelf to  manage  the                                                              
program.      National   estimates   are  that   30   percent   of                                                              
transportation  projects get  delayed  for some  reason.   Because                                                              
the  obligation  limit will  lapse,  there  must  be some  way  to                                                              
recycle  that money  to another  project  or the  state will  lose                                                              
those  dollars.    DOT&PF  has   to  have  one  program  ready  to                                                              
substitute  for another  in  case the  first  project is  delayed.                                                              
DOT&PF  is  now  delivering  a program  that  is  slavish  to  the                                                              
apportionment  on the  shelf because  DOT&PF has  no surplus.   He                                                              
concluded, "This is no way to run a railroad, to be frank."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOOGAN  jested  that  he has  more  questions  but                                                              
should probably direct them to a congressman.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:24:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued his presentation:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     If you  recall what I said  at the start of  the presentation                                                              
     I  started two  days ago,  this is  a program  that has  been                                                              
     amended  over 50  years.   It has  had a  lot of  amendments.                                                              
     The  one thing  I haven't  told  you is  the new  law of  the                                                              
     land, passed in  the energy bill at the end  of 2007, is that                                                              
     we now  have to  give up rescissions  in the same  proportion                                                              
     that  we  received them.    We  no  longer can  decide  which                                                              
     apportionment  to give  back  because we  have  a little  too                                                              
     much  of that and  we want  to preserve  this one  over here.                                                              
     We  have to  give  them back.   If  we  got 10  percent in  a                                                              
     category,  10 percent  of our  rescission has  to go  back to                                                              
     them  in our  same  category.   The  driver  of  this is  two                                                              
     things.   It's  the I-35  bridge collapse  where some  states                                                              
     were  found to  have  used their  bridge  money, some  states                                                              
     were  found to  have  not.   It's  trail  advocates that  are                                                              
     upset   because    some   states   have   not    used   their                                                              
     transportation   enhancement  apportionment,  the   State  of                                                              
     Texas being the  prime example.  They refused  over the years                                                              
     to use TE,  as it is called,  and have just let  it lapse and                                                              
     have  given  it  back  under the  rescissions.    The  trails                                                              
     advocates  in  that  state   have  cried  foul  and  gone  to                                                              
     Congress.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     So  the new  law  of the  land is  proportional  rescissions.                                                              
     All that  means is  we have  to give -  we're going  to start                                                              
     giving  back NHS,  STP, IM,  the very  three categories  that                                                              
     build  roads  and  build  ferries.    That  wouldn't  be  our                                                              
     choice.   In our state,  just to give  you an example  of why                                                              
     we might  want to manage apportionment,  bridge apportionment                                                              
     has historically  been one of our surplus  categories.  We've                                                              
     had  a lot  of bridge  apportionment.   We have  historically                                                              
     chosen not to use it for one simple reason.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:26:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     It  required   a  20  percent   match  when  all   the  other                                                              
     categories  required  either 6  or 9  percent  match.   Those                                                              
     categories,  like  NHS  and   STP,  were  eligible  to  build                                                              
     bridges  so why  would I  want  to spend  80 percent  federal                                                              
     money  when  I  can  spend  94 percent  federal  money  on  a                                                              
     bridge?   But,  you  know,  now that  the  I-35 collapse  has                                                              
     happened,  and  you get  asked  why  you haven't  spent  that                                                              
     bridge  money,  it's  pretty  hard to  explain  these  arcane                                                              
     details  to a  reporter calling  about  why did  you give  up                                                              
     bridge money back  in 2004.  A lot of bridge  money went into                                                              
     SHAKWAK  money.  It  wasn't because we  didn't want  to build                                                              
     bridges.  It  was because we didn't want to  build bridges at                                                              
     80 percent when we could build them at 94 percent.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:26:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said he was ready to move on to another subject.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:27:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN announced a brief at-ease.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:27:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR JOHANSEN called  the meeting back to order  and announced he                                                              
would resume  the meeting on Tuesday  for an overview of  the 2030                                                              
long range plan.   On Thursday, Mr. Ottesen would  finish the STIP                                                              
presentation.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
Transportation Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:28                                                                 
p.m.                                                                                                                            

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